Talk:Famous Descendants of William the Conqueror of England
I like it! Robin Patterson 14:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC) I am glad. I hope to add more in the future. Will 02:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC) See Johan_Willem_Friso_van_Nassau-Dietz_(1687-1711) and his descendants on Wikipedia. JWF is the 4xgreat grand son of William the Rich. Rtol 08:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC) Ease of editing? Will, I'd like to divide it into sections with subheadings, for easier editing. Logical places would be the start of the children and grandchildren, with their names (and maybe brief descriptions, such as "William's most prolific grandson"?) as headings, though I haven't studied the whole table to see how workable that would make it. — Robin Patterson (Talk) 02:37, May 16, 2010 (UTC) Colored text? What do text colors red, blue and black signify? :: :Blue is a link to a page on this wiki. Red is a link to a future page on this wiki. Black is normal neither. -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 05:13, January 16, 2014 (UTC) Catherine Stanley and Dulcia Savage. Hello there. I have a couple of questions about the lineage from William the C to President Obama. Generation 12 says that Joan Goushill (b 1401) married Thomas Stanley. According to Stanley's Wiki page, they had 9 children, one of whom was Generation 13, Catherine (or Katherine) Stanley (born ?), who married a John Savage. The first question is, which John Savage is that? There are three generations of John Savages. The second problem is: whichever John Savage it is, none of them appear to have married a Catherine Stanley. According to this site: 1. John Savage, Ist of Clifton, (died 1386) married Margaret Danniers (1350-1427) 2. John Savage, 2nd of Clifton (died 1450) married Maud Swinnerton (1370-1415), and then Ellen Vernon in 1428 (no birth or death dates). 3. John Savage (c1403-1463), son of the 2nd of Clifton and Maud, married Elizabeth Brereton (c 1406-?). Third problem: the current tree then says that Catherine (and John Savage) had a daughter, Dulcia Savage, Generation 14. But Dulcia Savage doesn't appear to be the daughter of Catherine. The entry for Dulcia on this site says: "Dulcia Savage was born circa 1448 in England to John Savage (c1422-?) and Margaret Daniell (c1424-?) . She married Henry Bold (c1444-1496) 1463 . " Fourth problem; as spelled out above, none of the John Savages married a Margaret Daniell either. A final observation: the article on this site about John Savage the 2nd says: "According to The visitation of Cheshire in the year 1580 his children were: Sir John who married Elenor dau of Sir Will'm Brereton; Margrett who married Sir John Maxfield then Randoll Manwaring; Ellin who married Peter Warburton; '''Alice who married Sir Henry Bold';" That implies that Dulcia is also 'Alice', daughter of John the 2nd and Maud - except that Maud died in 1415, and Dulcia was born c1448, Either way, there's still no connection between her and Catherine Stanley. So this section of the genealogy seems rather dubious, to say the least. I'd be interested to hear people's views. Gnu Ordure (talk) 17:12, January 7, 2015 (UTC) :Some changes have already been made: in Ancestors of Barack Obama we have struck out the ancestors of Dulcia Savage (c1448-), whose father is no longer claimed to be any of the "John Savage"s you mention. This line of descent should also be deleted from this page. Thurstan (talk) 22:45, January 7, 2015 (UTC) Hi Thurstan, thanks for looking at this. Yes, I noticed that 'John Savage' and 'Catherine Stanley' in the 'Ancestors of B.O.' were marked as 'disputed'. So I'm evidently not the first person to notice this possible error in the genealogy. So, when you say 'This line of descent should also be deleted from this page', am I right in thinking that that would entail deleting all the names below Joan Goushill and Thomas Stanley in Generation 12? That's a total of 49 entries, including the lines that lead to General Robert E Lee, President James Madison, Brad Pitt and President Obama. That's a huge edit. I'm reluctant to do such a thing myself without prior approval from someone here with more expertise than myself. I'm not a genealogist, not even in an amateur sense. (Perhaps I should explain my interest in this subject; I recently read in an old newspaper online that President Obama was descended from William the Conqueror. His Wikipedia page doesn't mention it, so I suggested amending their article to include the information, citing the newspaper article which was based on this website. However, before making that edit I decided to trace the line of descent myself, and discovered this apparent hole concerning Catherine Stanley and Dulcia Savage. Hence me signing up here to investigate further.) I would appreciate your advice on how to proceed, Thurstan. Thanks. Gnu Ordure (talk) 21:55, January 8, 2015 (UTC) :It's a biggie, Gnu! Thanks for bringing it up. You are clearly as good an amateur genealogist as most of us here!! :Maybe we should drag in Will, apparently the original author, who may have some documentation the rest of us haven't found. An alternative approach could be to put it to the readers of Soc.gen.medieval. One could also see what Geni.com has to say about those people. I'll send Will a message to take us a little further. :It would be a pity to delete a whole lot of linkages just because of one weak link - better to create a separate page to move the undisputed relatives to. :-- Robin Patterson (Talk) 01:50, January 9, 2015 (UTC) ::I have copied the descendants of the Eltonhead sisters to their alternate line of descents, so there is nothing lost in deleting them from here. Thurstan (talk) 02:40, January 10, 2015 (UTC) :Hi Robin, thanks for the help. And yes, it is a rather big edit, hence me discussing it in advance. I look forward to hearing from Will, and anyone else. As regards 'one weak link', it seems to me that there are two in a row; a John Savage 'marrying' Catherine Stanley, and Dulcia Savage not being Catherine's daugter. Gnu Ordure (talk) 22:12, January 9, 2015 (UTC) : In answer to your specific question about William I: it is claimed here that Barack Obama is descended from Martha Eltonhead (1628-1689), who in turn is descended from King Henry II of England (1133-1189) (I notice the Savage family occurs in the lineage too), who is descended from the Conqueror. WARGS seems to endorse that link, with the note "see Gary Boyd Roberts, ''The Royal Descents of 600 immigrants Genealogical, 2008, pp. 825-826, 314, and 361.". Presumably this is a reference you need for Wikipedia. Thurstan (talk) 02:50, January 9, 2015 (UTC) Ah, but as far as this line of descent is concerned, both Martha and her sister Alice are directly below Dulcia Savage in Generation 19; so if Dulcia is removed, so are they. Gnu Ordure (talk) 22:36, January 9, 2015 (UTC) :I have inserted the alternate line of descent through Martha Eltonhead (1628-1689) into the page, which seems to avoid the problem links. I would like everyone to check my work please! It should include more spouses (TODO!) Thurstan (talk) 01:06, January 10, 2015 (UTC) :So, you're now tracing the route up through Martha and Alice's mother, Ann Sutton, rather than their father Richard? Neat. I'll look at the details over the weekend, but it looks good at first glance. :Gosh, this genealogy lark is quite fun, isn't it? It's like doing a three-dimensional jigsaw after playing hide-and-seek with the pieces. :Tell me, Thurstan (or anyone else), if I wanted to explore my own family tree, where would I start? Do I need to buy a software package? Could I do it from the comfort of my sofa, or would I need to get out and examine church registers in person? I guess that would depend on how obscure my ancestors are... Thanks in advance... Gnu Ordure (talk) 14:38, January 10, 2015 (UTC) :Sheesh, this is confusing; I can trace the route down from William Longespee (this is the route suggested by Douglas Richardson here ,right?) to the marriage of Maud Swinnerton and John Savage II, and then it becomes ambiguous with regard to Mary Savage. The page here on JS II gives this quote under 'children', which I partly quoted before: :According to The visitation of Cheshire in the year 1580 his children were: Sir John who married Elenor dau of Sir Will'm Brereton; Margrett who married Sir John Maxfield then Randoll Manwaring; Ellin who married Peter Warburton; Alice who married Sir Henry Bold; Maud who married Sir John Booth of Barton; Blanch who married Sir Thomas Carrington; Beatrix who married Sir Hamnett Carrington (bro of Thomas); Anne who married Charles Nowell; Parnell who married Reynold Leigh of Blackbrooke. There is also an extra Magrett who married Edward Leigh of Baueley. :No Mary there, though she appears in the box just above that quotation. On the other hand, the Geni page on JS II does mention her - but it also mentions four or five children who don't appear in that 1580 list: Father of John Savage III, William Arnold Savage; George Savage; Roger Savage; Margaret Savage; Beatrice Savage; Mary Savage; Gracia Savage; Ann Savage; Parnella Savage; Isabel Savage, of Clifton; Maude (John & Maud) Savage; Arnold Savage; Ellen Warburton; Alice De Vernon and Blanche Savage (here). :That's quite a discrepancy, isn't it? Damn these Savages!!! Gnu Ordure (talk) 19:05, January 10, 2015 (UTC) So far the only responses have been the assertion of the apparently impossible. I think that if we assume that "Dulcia" is the misreading of a manuscript "Alicia", then the problem is actually at the next generation down. If I draw the tree: then we see that "Maud Bold" has to be stretched over several generations to bridge the time gap between "Dulcie" Savage and her purported grand-daughter. Thurstan (talk) 03:30, February 14, 2015 (UTC)